Lisa & Karen Discuss Lisa’s New Memoir – “TROUBLEMAKER”

About Troublemaker

When longtime sports television personality Lisa Cornwell went public about the misogynistic culture that she and other women faced during their time at Golf Channel/NBCUniversal, she had no idea the impact it would have in the sports world and beyond.

With a powerful foreword from Hillary Rodham Clinton, her tell-all book Troublemaker: A Memoir of Sexism, Retaliation, and the Fight They Didn’t See Coming takes readers inside the boys’ club of sports media and reveals the way powerful corporations cover up wrongdoings. For her, what began with sexism and retaliation exploded into a public smear campaign and, ultimately, her dismissal.

Lisa also shares the unlikely yet formative touchstones of her life: a close friendship with Tiger Woods when both were nationally ranked junior golfers; her cousin, Bill Clinton, being elected President of the United States; and the private demons she battled as a young adult that almost cost her everything.

Candid and compulsively readable, Troublemaker is a timely story of fighting back against the sexist cultural norms that are still deeply embedded in our society. It will resonate with anyone who has experienced unfair treatment in the workplace due to their gender, race, orientation, and more.


Lisa Cornwell (00:04.19)

A lot of people have asked what happened to the Like It Is podcast that abruptly stopped last year that I had started. And after getting the book deal, Troublemaker, that's coming out May 23rd, we're recording this Monday. So it's out tomorrow, you're watching that, and it's today. So I paused it, and rebranded.

Lisa Cornwell (00:30.342)

the podcast because there's so much to talk about anybody who follows me on Twitter and hopefully you'll be following the woman here, Karen Krauss, who's a good friend and a fellow troublemaker. Welcome everybody to the troublemakers podcast. You are a troublemaker, Karen Crouse.

Karen Crouse (00:47.089)

And proudly so, if just sticking up for what is right makes you a troublemaker, I'm all in.

Lisa Cornwell (00:54.418)

Well, you are and I can't wait to share your story with the world. You used to work for the New York Times as a longtime sports writer, collegiate athlete. We met through the game of golf and your story is phenomenal. By the way, I got to brag Karen is currently writing Michael Phelps's memoir. So that's a big deal. And it shows how respected you are. So I can't wait to share that story with folks. But you have been gracious enough. You said, look on this initial podcast, we got to talk about the book and

Karen Crouse (01:23.149) Absolutely.

Lisa Cornwell (01:24.022)

You are one of the people who influenced me. You're a writer, you helped me. So in episode one of the Troublemakers podcast, I'm gonna turn it over to you. You're the host and we'll talk about this book and dive into it. So it's great. We have no guest on this one. It's just you and me discussing everything that's in the book and sort of your takeaway as well.

Karen Crouse (01:47.853)

Well, the book is an extraordinary achievement. It's amazing to publish a book at all. It's such a laborious process. You are putting your heart and soul on the page. It's a labor of love, but you have been so revealing in it, telling people personal things that have never really been made public before. And I tip my cap to you because that's a whole nother level of vulnerability that.

Karen Crouse (02:15.985)

not is not easy for any writer to achieve. So I cannot wait for your book to get out in the world and for people to read it. I'm just wondering what I know like women will see themselves on every page. But my hope is that men will read this book in droves because the problems that you

Karen Crouse (02:45.825)

We need the men around us to step up and show support to eradicate some of the inequity that you make very plain on the pages. I'm wondering if you see it similarly.

Lisa Cornwell (03:01.254)

100%. It's funny because, you know, I tweeted something out and I do this a lot. You know, I stand up for, for women's golf. I mean, I stand up for women. I stand up for people. So I don't want to just make this a gender topic, but being in the world of golf, as you very well know, you know, how the women are often just treated like second-class citizens for lack of a better phrase and it's, you know, it's frustrating, it's unfortunate, but I tweeted something yesterday coming off the PGA championship.

Lisa Cornwell (03:29.762)

And, you know, we always just refer to golf as golf, but when it's women's golf, it's women's golf, you know, like it drives me crazy. The U S women's open. You don't have that stuff in tennis, you know, you, you don't. And that's why there's more of a level level playing field. So I tweeted about, about not, not referring or, or bringing the women in who have won five plus majors over the years.


isa Cornwell (03:53.418)

And you know, they're, they're using that number right now since Brooks won the PGA championship. There are now 20 players who've won five or more majors. Well, that's not true. There are 20 men who have won five or more majors. 16 women have won five or more majors. So I tweeted that, you know, just, just reminding people, not lecturing. And I think I got three or four or five responses that actually more than that, but one stood out and it said playing the victim card again. So, you know, look,

Karen Crouse (04:19.577) Wow.

Lisa Cornwell (04:22.642)

Most men are incredibly supportive and I will say that society's changed our attitude towards women has has gotten much better But this guy proves that we still have a long way to go. I mean anybody who knows

Karen Crouse (04:35.085)

Well, every time someone says that Victor Hovland is trying to become the first Norwegian to win a major just isn't paying attention, Suzanne Pedersen would like a word. So I was glad to see that that point was made on the telecast yesterday. So you are opening minds and I applaud you for that.

Lisa Cornwell (04:46.814) Right. Exactly.

Karen Crouse (05:02.897)

I just have to talk about chapter 13. You write a chapter on Brandle Chambley, the star analyst for Golf Channel. And as I watched his conversation post-game with Brad Faxon about the merits of Brooks Koepka being eligible for the Ryder Cup, I just, my mind went right to your chapter on him and I felt like

Karen Crouse (05:31.765)

his behavior and the way he took Brad on when Brad made a very reasonable counter argument to Brandel's validated every word in that chapter. What did you think when you were watching it?

Lisa Cornwell (05:50.478)

He's a bully, plain and simple. I mean, those of us who have worked closely with him and dealt with his tirades understand it. I mean, I watched it too. And look, it's interesting because in the beginning, surprisingly, Brandle and I shared a lot of similar views on live, you know, I'm still very much anti-live. Brad Faxon was right though, last night, you could not argue with the, with, with the reasoning that, that Brad gave in terms of

Lisa Cornwell (06:18.006)

Brooks Kapka, this is not a PGA Tour event in terms of the writer cup. It's a PGA of America event. I certainly, you know, think that he's earned that spot. That will be the choice of the captain, but how could you go against that? But it was really the reaction to Brad and, and just that whole bullying mentality. Like I'm right and you're wrong. How dare you take this stance against me? Brad actually, he was very.

Karen Crouse (06:34.147) Right.

Lisa Cornwell (06:42.414)

cordial in the end. He didn't take him on. I wish Duvall or Nabilo had been in that seat because the conversation would have gone a lot differently. But yeah, yeah, I would have, it would have been different. I would not have been as diplomatic as Faxon was. He handled it well. But now look, that's why I wanted to put this out there. There are a lot of stories about Chamblis that people don't know about, that some encounters.

Karen Crouse (06:51.107) or Lisa Cornwell.

Lisa Cornwell (07:09.662)

some encounters that I faced and it's not just somebody not liking me. You know this from your line of work, not everybody's gonna like what I do on TV. They're not always gonna like your writing, but you still treat people with respect. And when you cross the line, you become a chapter in a book possibly. And that's what happened, he crossed the line on several occasions, one of which was actively trying to get me fired for absolutely no reason.

Karen Crouse (07:20.994) Right.

Karen Crouse (07:33.781)

Well, full disclosure, I wrote a positive profile on Brandle when I was at the New York Times, and I stand by it to this day. I always admired his preparation and the facts that he came armed with to support his argument. But in the case of Liv, I think he's lost the plot and it's become just such a passion play for him. Or I almost feel like it's...

Karen Crouse (08:02.285)

bled into the realm of propaganda because I feel like everyone at Golf Channel has become mouthpieces for the PGA Tour. But when I read your chapter, I think what shocked me and dismayed me was that knowing that when he is making comparisons about the ladies on the LPGA Tour, he is not talking about

Karen Crouse (08:30.025)

what women have the best putting strokes, but he actually in an anecdote, you relay is rating their body parts, which it made me wonder, my goodness, how many times when I spoke to him, as soon as I turned away was he objectifying me in some way, shape or form behind my back to his colleagues or cohorts. It was very, in retrospect, more defined.

Lisa Cornwell (09:00.178)

Yeah, well, look, people are going to do that in private, right? You can't do it at work and you certainly cannot do it about players that you cover. People clearly on social media know that I've had an issue with them. And there are certain things that happen at work and that happened with me personally that I will forever be outspoken about. But-

Lisa Cornwell (09:27.014)

I take that to the next level as passionate as I am about women's golf, as much as I am a defender and protector of women in general, you cannot cover a women's golf tournament and have a best breast contest over the LPGA Tour at Work. Yeah, exactly. And so if you want to learn about that, go to Chapter 13. And I couldn't put that out there on social media. It's one of the reasons, many reasons that I wanted to write a book.

Karen Crouse (09:43.688) Spoiler alert.

Lisa Cornwell (09:55.126)

because these stories need to be told so they can be stopped. I mean, look, I had a lot of people when, when I said things about Brandle publicly, this not included because like you said, I haven't told the story yet until the book, but people would say, you know, Lisa, he's earned his spot. You know, he's a, he's a well-studied analyst. And you know, like I say in the book, in theory, they're right. And so I can't, I can't be upset with those people because they didn't until this point know that story.

Lisa Cornwell (10:23.83)

But nobody can say that now. You cannot say, you know, I'm not on this mission Karen to get Brandel Shambly fired. His job is up to NBC Sports, it's up to Golf Channel. If they wanna employ that kind of person, that's obviously up to them. He cannot work women's events, period. That's. That's the way it is.

Karen Crouse (10:26.081) Well.

Karen Crouse (10:39.821)

Well, two things can be true at once. You can be very good at your job and you can be misogynistic. I mean, I think any woman who has spent any amount of time in the golf world understands that right off the bat. So I just think that the problem is that there are a lot of men who see what's going on, but don't wanna make waves because if you make a wave, you become a troublemaker and are ostracized from the herd.

Karen Crouse (11:10.217)

And then there are people for whom the sexism is so ingrained, they don't even see it. I mean, you don't see what you're not looking for. And if this is just, you know, if talking about women's bodies is just a part of your daily conversation around the water cooler with wherever men, two or more men, gather, that's the topic of conversation. They simply aren't going to see what the big deal is. That's why I think your book.

Karen Crouse (11:39.613)

serves such a valuable purpose for maybe the men and who might pick it up. They might realize, oh, I never even looked at it that way. I never saw how such an off the cuff remark could be so damning or damaging.

Lisa Cornwell (11:56.818)

And, you know, for for people to be around and to hear those stories, obviously, I wasn't there, but I was told about it. And so it was it happened at work in front of people. And, you know, some people operate like there's no repercussions. And honestly, that was sort of no, because there haven't been. No. I mean, look at what happened with Tiger Woods. Now this stuff's coming out. So, yeah, you have to hold people accountable for what they do. I mean, there's there's right and wrong. It's not that hard.

Karen Crouse (12:03.51) Yeah.

Karen Crouse (12:12.237) Well, because there haven't been historically, yes.

Lisa Cornwell (12:26.154)

You know, you don't need all these definitions and to watch videos on how to behave. We all know right and wrong, right? So.

Karen Crouse (12:26.646) Yeah.

Karen Crouse (12:34.273)

Right. Well, it's funny to me because now in every workplace, you have these videos that you have to watch about harassment in the workplace. And, you know, I'm thinking, what do people learn? Like, what are they? Are they are they absorbing this information or, you know, treating it as a joke? You know, what I loved about your book is that you are almost like the Forrest Gump of golf. There are so many really bold face names that have just.

Lisa Cornwell (12:52.993) Right.

Karen Crouse (13:03.945)

you've been around, it's been a part of your normal existence. You talk about one of your friends in junior golf was one Tiger Woods and getting a lesson from Colonel Woods as you called Earl. And it was just such a sweet chapter because you really humanize Tiger in a way that he seldom is portrayed. So I look forward to people reading that chapter.

Karen Crouse (13:33.077)

And then also the fact that you are related to Bill Clinton and played golf with the president, slept in the White House. I mean, you're not bragging. This is just the people you, these are just the people you know, and you really humanize them in such a wonderful fashion. So I think that makes the book hugely entertaining as well as illuminating.

Lisa Cornwell (13:44.365) Yeah.

Lisa Cornwell (13:59.046)

Well, thanks. As you know, I'm proud of both of those chapters because I'm proud of both of those men, both of whom, I admit, you know, are flawed. But here's the thing, we're all flawed in one way. We are. But both of those men have been very good to me, very good friends. I mean, Tiger and I have a lot of great memories. And, you know, it's been great through my time working in golf media to be able to reconnect with them, because I don't I don't think I would have otherwise. And so

Karen Crouse (14:08.333) Hmm. Aren't we all? Yes.

Lisa Cornwell (14:29.374)

Yeah, to sort of to know what he was like as a kid. And look, he was just a kid to me. He wasn't this future phenom. He was just a kid who was good at golf like we all were. We all thought that we were great at golf. We didn't think that one person was better than the other. One person would go on to be the superstar. We all thought that we would. So we were just cocky little kids playing a sport we loved and chasing a dream. So, yeah, I think that I think folks will enjoy the story with Colonel Woods and the pine cone.

Lisa Cornwell (14:59.002)

I call it the pine cone incident that Tiger sort of laughed of. Pine cone gate. Yeah. But it's so typical of of Colonel Woods and really tells a big story in a short amount of time of why I think Tiger has gone on to become the greatest player in the history of the game. And it's it's not just the physical gifts and and the work ethic.

Karen Crouse (15:01.153) pinecone gate. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Cornwell (15:23.326)

and the understanding of the game, but really the mental approach that his dad instilled in him. So yeah, there's that chapter. They really back up. It's the Tiger chapter and then the chapter about Bill because they were so close in my life. As a junior golfer playing golf with Tiger, and then I'm 18, I'm a freshman in college, and my cousin gets elected president. So yeah, I tell some stories about that. And then I think the interesting part about triggering an alarm on

Karen Crouse (15:38.21) Right.

Lisa Cornwell (15:53.698)

the White House lawn and being accosted by secret service agents and thrown on the ground and frisked and yeah, that was, I violated some security procedures that I was unaware of. Yeah, yeah, but I made it, I survived and Bill and I laughed about it. So it's a funny story between us.

Karen Crouse (15:55.67) Yes!

Karen Crouse (16:05.845)

It could have been a Veep episode, you know? Yes.

Karen Crouse (16:16.789)

I know for you to tell the full story of your experience at Golf Channel forced you to really reveal some personal details. Was wondering how hard it was just to talk about your relationship and put that out when you are part of a very conservative sport.

Lisa Cornwell (16:40.146)

Yeah, it was hard. Not as hard as I thought that it would be. I, and on this day, the day before the book comes out, I thought that I would be a little bit more nervous to be honest, because I am very private. I'm very private with my personal life. I have a small circle of friends. And yeah, I mean, look, it is a conservative sport. I grew up in the South. I grew up in the Southern Baptist culture.

Karen Crouse (16:51.724) you

Lisa Cornwell (17:08.91)

And so sort of talking about where I am now in my life and who I'm married to, who happens to be an LPGA player and revealing some of those different details of my life, an eating disorder and some anxiety issues that I suffered from. It was really, it was like going to therapy all over again, to be honest, only I was more prepared to handle it than I was the first time around when I went to therapy for a couple of years. So it's a part of my life that

Karen Crouse (17:27.489) Hahaha

Lisa Cornwell (17:38.734)

I now thankfully have embraced and I'm very proud of. But you know, it was, I was nervous putting it in there. And I remember when Tucker and I were going through it, he said, Lisa, you gotta open up a little bit more. And this was more specifically talking about Sarah. So I would kind of dig in a little bit deeper and I was like, okay, I'll write a little bit more. And as you know, Sarah's a big part of the story, not just because of our relationship. This isn't a love story by any means. So anybody who's freaking out saying, we don't wanna hear about your love life, don't worry.

Karen Crouse (17:54.617) Hmm.

Lisa Cornwell (18:09.098)

But there was an incident. In fact, I think probably the most egregious thing that happened when I was at Golf Channel that involved Sarah and involved Angela Aikens, who is now Angela Garcia married to Sergio and what happened on the heels of their relationship that affected my job and really a big employment law violation, I think by the network and by my direct bosses. That's when I should have called a lawyer.

Lisa Cornwell (18:35.826)

I naively thought that my bosses were still on my side and look, it's easy to get into the weeds. It's a hard story to explain, but I do think it'll be worth the read for readers who are interested in the story for sure.

Karen Crouse (18:43.214) Right.

Karen Crouse (18:49.457)

Right. Yeah, I just felt like the book deconstructed so many stereotypes. Among them that I think people rightfully so perhaps look at sports as an look at golf as an elitist sport, that everybody who plays it is, you know, entitled and rich and privileged. And as you point out in your book, that does not describe your upbringing at all. So

Karen Crouse (19:17.621)

I appreciated that just so that people can see that not everybody who plays golf was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Lisa Cornwell (19:31.598)

I couldn't agree more. And we talk about this a lot in the game and trying to grow the game and trying to figure out how to make it more affordable. I don't know how we ever can but I will say that I lived that. I was fortunate, we were a middle class family growing up but my parents endured some financial hardships because of a business that they started. So I remember times when my parents were having to borrow money to pay for my golf trips. I remember-

Lisa Cornwell (20:00.022)

having to borrow money from my grandparents when our heater went out and figure out how we were going to get through the winter. So I think that it was a big part of my regret later in my teens when I started to feel this extreme burnout from golf and didn't want to play professionally anymore because I knew the sacrifice that they made to get me to that point. So I think that it caused a lot of those

Karen Crouse (20:25.465) right.

Lisa Cornwell (20:27.782)

issues that I talk about that, you know, that I had to had to get some help with. I mean, here we are in the mental in the middle of mental health awareness month. I think it's an important topic. And I certainly didn't, I didn't even realize that it was mental health awareness month, but it's a good time for me to be talking about that because. You know, there are a lot of, there are a lot of things that I went through that I didn't even realize at the time. And I certainly didn't talk to people about because I was embarrassed and I was ashamed.

Karen Crouse (20:46.722) Absolutely.

Lisa Cornwell (20:57.174)

to talk to people and I think that thankfully we're getting better as a society in understanding that we all have our own issues and it's okay to seek help to talk to people to go through it but yeah there were just some things that I think a lot of kids go through that we don't all realize. We live in this Instagram world. Everybody puts on their makeup and they do these...

Lisa Cornwell (21:23.922)

selfies on Instagram and everybody has this wonderful life. And I think that, you know, obviously I grew up before Instagram, well before Instagram, and you think, oh, she's just a golfer, she's a successful athlete, all these things, great things are going on. And then behind the scenes, my life's kind of chaos. So it was just getting through that and understanding it. And, you know, I'm thankful for it now, Karen. It made me the person who I am and to be able to write about it in the book. I didn't expect to write as much as I did, but it certainly...

Karen Crouse (21:40.491) Right, right.

Lisa Cornwell (21:54.098) was very cathartic for me.

Karen Crouse (21:56.397)

The mental health issues that you address in the book, it was really timely for me to read them as I am working on Michael Phelps' mental health memoir and also ghostwriting the figure skater, Gracie Gold's memoir. She missed out on a chance to compete at the 2018 Olympics where at one point she had been portrayed as a medal contender.

Karen Crouse (22:23.789)

because she entered treatment for an eating disorder and turned out she was suffering from depression and anxiety. And I think that athletes are particularly susceptible to mental illness because of the tropes that they grow up accepting as fact. When the going gets tough, the tough get going. Just grit it, grit and bear it.

Karen Crouse (22:52.669)

you are actually encouraged to deny your feelings and be tough, you know, the toughest winds. And actually vulnerability in the athletic realm is still stigmatized. You're seen as weak if you show feelings or emotions or admit that you are less than invulnerable. So when I read your story,

Karen Crouse (23:21.225)

about what you went through growing up, it really resonated with me because I absolutely believe your story is not unique. It's probably the norm rather than the exception.

Lisa Cornwell (23:35.883)

Yeah, especially for women. And I know that young men and grown men, in fact, go through these things as well, but you're right. I mean, how many women deal with an eating disorder like

I did? And there are all sorts of it can manifest in several different ways. And so, like I say in the book, I'm obviously not proud of the eating disorder, but I am proud of what I went through.

Karen Crouse (23:48.413) Right, right.

Lisa Cornwell (24:01.95)

And I learned through that process because you learn a lot about yourself when you're having to break down these walls in therapy. You certainly do. And I'm more sensitive to it. I think I'm more sensitive to other people. I can't wait to read the Michael Phelps story. I can't wait to read Gracie's too, because she and I share so many things. And just on that note, because you mentioned it with athletes, I think you're right. For me personally, you know, I loved those pats on the back. I loved, you know,

Lisa Cornwell (24:30.71)

people coming up and saying, oh, we're so proud of you. Or when my parents were around, I could see them light up. And when I stopped playing golf, those pats really stopped coming in. And that's when I started to struggle because that was my identity. And that was the wrong thing. And like my parents did not do that to me. My parents were great. They didn't pressure me into playing golf. They didn't force me to play after I started talking about the burnout that I was experiencing. But where...

Lisa Cornwell (25:00.006)

where I failed was in not failing them where I failed myself was not being comfortable to talk about it and that's why I'm just right exactly.

Karen Crouse (25:09.449)

Well, you're conditioned, you're conditioned not to talk about it. But I also think that sports, youth sports become such a cottage industry. I call it the industrialized sports complex where it is so expensive anymore to take part in youth sports. And so inadvertently, it does escalate the pressure that

Karen Crouse (25:37.025)

kids feel like, oh my gosh, my parents have invested so much time and money in my sport. I have to keep going. Even if I don't enjoy it anymore, I owe it to them. And then it just becomes this joyless march. You see it all the time. I don't know what the answer is other than to remove the insanity from youth sports.

Karen Crouse (26:01.873)

Actually, I wrote a book in 2018 about a town in Vermont, Norwich, that did a great job at that and still managed to produce an outsized number of Olympians almost accidentally. But it's a real thing. I was with Gracie in Colorado Springs over the weekend and she made an aside that has really stuck with me because I think it speaks to so many of the issues that you address in the book that

Karen Crouse (26:30.909)

it was only until she was an adult that she realized that there were people who didn't get straight A's in school that were act that actually failed classes and that, you know, lived to tell about it and it was okay. And you may think that sounds ridiculous, but it resonated with me because when you grow up in athletics and as you become better and your, um,

Karen Crouse (26:58.437)

you start to reach the elite levels, you really are surrounded by like minds and like personalities and people with who share your same neuroses. So you accept as fact that everybody is wired this way that a bee is a disaster, that second place is a disaster. And I remember when I started dating my husband and

Karen Crouse (27:24.821)

and I would say things and he was so chill like, oh, you know, I would beat him in some card game and he would be like, oh, well played. And I'd be like, wait, you mean you aren't devastated? Why are you not devastated? And it was a reminder that not everybody is wired in that way that works so well if you are involved in elite athletics and the wiring that works so well in elite athletics.

Lisa Cornwell (27:36.357) I'm sorry.

Karen Crouse (27:54.073)

can be very destabilizing when you are just trying to live your life as we've seen with numerous athletes through the years, most recently perhaps Tiger. There's just so much to unpack in your book. There is something honestly for everybody in those pages.

Lisa Cornwell (28:19.05)

Yeah, now we're a day away. So maybe now that we're talking about it, I am getting nervous. Maybe this is, it's setting in like it's all getting real. I can't believe it. I can't believe it. Yeah, there are a lot of things that I think that people will expect, but I think a lot of stories and incidents that happened and big picture issues with Golf Channel and NBC that-

Karen Crouse (28:23.974) Oh, it's all good.

Karen Crouse (28:29.213) Yeah, it's all good.

Lisa Cornwell (28:48.342)

will surprise folks in the stay and age that still occurred. So.

Karen Crouse (28:51.853)

Can we talk a little bit about the nepotism at Golf Channel? That was another part that was interesting to me because I think that there's an assumption that, well, women in the workplace will have other women's backs and you clearly did not, but that's not unusual, right? You wish it were so, but I sometimes think that the women who gain power then feel like they have to act like men to keep that power or to...

Lisa Cornwell (29:07.735) here.

Karen Crouse (29:21.277)

maintain the respect of the men around them. And so they actually become the worst kind of boss, like very unsupportive.

Lisa Cornwell (29:32.254)

Yeah, well look, I thought that getting the job at Golf Channel after being in sports media for all those years, it was like I could breathe a sigh of relief because the woman who hired me or the person who hired me is a woman. And so in my mind, I thought, okay, all of these...

Lisa Cornwell (29:53.646)

small issues. I never faced anything big. You know, I worked with a lot of a lot of great men, but I never had a female co worker in the sports department. I'm sure you haven't had that many either. So to have a female boss, I thought, oh, this is good. This will be awesome. But you're right. The unfortunate part is that a lot of times when women get in positions like that, they don't want to be that woman, you know, who is constantly pushing for fairness and equality. I mean, think about that. So

Lisa Cornwell (30:23.598)

Uh, it's why I say Molly Solomon went from, from being the one of the biggest exciting parts of my professional career to the biggest disappointment of my professional career, because when people are like that, they want to become honorary members of the boys club. The problem is those boys see exactly what you're doing. And if they already have a boys club culture going, they'll accept you in, in front of the

Karen Crouse (30:41.849) Exactly.

Lisa Cornwell (30:53.306)

in front of the scenes, but behind the scenes, they know that you're like a pawn and they can play you. And it happens all the time. I've talked to so many people about female bosses who they have had and surprisingly, they've had the most difficult time. There's this big competition with women to first of all get the job, but then secondly, to remain in that job and to be quote unquote respected by everyone. Well, nobody respects anyone.

Karen Crouse (30:57.837) Right.

Lisa Cornwell (31:22.41)

who just allows bad things to happen for lack of a better way of saying it. Because it happened time and time and time and time again at Golf Channel. And I have the stories to prove it, I have stories from other women to prove it. And the one person who could have put a stop to it, decided to turn her back to it. And it's another reason that I wanted to write this book. And then to have her husband working alongside her.

Lisa Cornwell (31:51.318)

who came in as the executive editor, they had to give him a senior vice president role so he didn't report directly to his wife and instead to the president of the Golf Channel. Think about that, but he was my direct boss as an on-air talent person for the network. So the minute that I upset him, I mean, my job's over. And he's tight with Chamblis and Matt Janela, some of the other folks who are named in the book.

Karen Crouse (32:12.889) Yeah.

Lisa Cornwell (32:18.358)

who we call the untouchables for a specific reason. And again, it went on for years. I don't know how much of it's still going on. I'm separated from that. But yeah, I think that that is a surprising story, the whole nepotism, not just with Molly and Jeff, but the nepotism in terms of their friends and who's protected and who's not.

Karen Crouse (32:44.597)

Right, well, we also could talk about Brandel in that respect too. There's just so much that so many people in your book have to answer for. I'm really interested to see what the reaction will be and if any dominoes will fall as a result, they would be long overdue, but there really does need to be a reconciling. We'll see what happens.

Karen Crouse (33:15.069)

I just am amazed that I didn't know all of those things. You would think that when behavior is that egregious that it would get out and it would be addressed. But as you point out, sadly, this was the culture. I saw a little bit of it. I covered golf for the New York Times from 2012 through 2019.

Karen Crouse (33:42.457)

was seldom, if ever asked to do, you know, hits at Golf Channel where all the, many of the men around me were regular guests on programs. And it wasn't as if I wasn't breaking news. I think my profile was fairly high, but it was almost as if I was invisible. And I was fine with that because I'm not really very comfortable in your world. Even doing this podcast is making my hands clammy, but

Karen Crouse (34:11.593)

Um, it was, yes, I understand that completely. You should, you, uh, showed much more, um, uh, competence in the written word than I would on TV, but, um, it did make me wonder like, wow, um, it is almost as if I don't exist to the people running this channel and that's fine with me.

Lisa Cornwell (34:12.449) That was me writing a book.

Karen Crouse (34:39.105)

But it also was disturbing to know that other journalists were getting an invitation to talk about their stories and to give their voice to their opinions, which again, it makes people respect them. The people back home see these people on TV and think, wow, they must be experts.

Karen Crouse (35:04.717)

For better or worse, that's just how it goes. So if you aren't on TV and you aren't being asked to appear on these shows, it's almost as if you're being invalidated. And that's how I felt more and more. I once had this conversation with Brandle. I had done a story on Louise Richardson, the first principal at St. Andrews, which president of the university.

Karen Crouse (35:32.105)

she was not asked to be an honorary member of the RNA and living in the town where the RNA was headquartered, it was extremely awkward and uncomfortable for her. And when the RNA finally held a vote on whether to accept women members, I did do a spot for

Karen Crouse (36:00.693)

So I became their free labor, but I was happy to do so because I wanted to illuminate why this was so important that women were members, not because we wanted to infiltrate any boys club per se, but because as I told Brandel, if women are excluded from these places, they're being excluded from corridors of power. Golf isn't just being played at Augusta National.

Karen Crouse (36:30.401)

or food isn't just being passed around in the clubhouse of the RNA, deals are being made, connections are being forged. If a woman is being denied that, they are actually being hurt from a business sense. If they're competent enough to rise to the president of a college or a CEO of a corporation,

Karen Crouse (36:59.081)

and then are denied access to these places where business is absolutely conducted, they're at a disadvantage. And I just think that people didn't really see the situation framed that way.

Lisa Cornwell (37:16.414)

Well, I'm glad that you pointed it out. You've been doing that your entire career. So, you know, it's somebody, well, that's why we're doing this podcast. That's why it is the Troublemakers podcast. I can't wait to dive into all these issues and you and I could talk for hours, I think, about things that we're so passionate about. And again, I just wanna tell folks that...

Karen Crouse (37:21.117) as have you, so.

Karen Crouse (37:25.629) Absolutely.

Lisa Cornwell (37:42.018)

These stories, they are important and there are a lot of good people out there. The overall, I think everybody thinks that my book is bash, bash, bash, bash. But there are a lot of good stories in there. I mean, I love telling the story about our studio folks and all the great times that we had. I have so many wonderful memories and I'll always be thankful for that job. I wouldn't have met you if it hadn't been for Golf Channel. There are a lot of people. I wouldn't have met Sarah if it hadn't been.

Lisa Cornwell (38:10.626)

for Golf Channel, Karen Stuppel, Trip Eisenhower, they're still two of my closest friends. I was texting with some of our makeup girls yesterday whom I love. I mean, you just forge these friendships, you know that from your time at the New York Times and being out there. And so there's so much that I miss, but there's still so much that I'm thankful for. And like people who I don't know have been extremely supportive. And so I'm thankful for those folks as well. There's been a lot of support.

Karen Crouse (38:22.766) Sure.

Karen Crouse (38:39.817)

It's complicated. I mean, that's, you know, again, so many things can be true at once. You can love your job and, you know, hate the environment in which you have to conduct that job. You can love, you know, 99% of the people with whom you work, but if the 1% that give you trouble are, you know, include the managerial class, it's problematic. So, and, you know, behavior seems to trickle down from the top if...

Karen Crouse (39:09.485)

bad behavior is allowed at the top, it trickles down. So I don't think there's anything petty. I didn't feel like there was a petty vibe to your book. It was just very matter of fact, you own what you believe are your mistakes and ways in which you could have done better to maybe.

Karen Crouse (39:34.729)

avoid some of the pitfalls, but I think it's a very honest rendering of an amazing life and career. And again, I think people are really going to enjoy it.

Lisa Cornwell (39:47.774)

Well, thanks, Karen. Thank you for that. Thank you for all your help. I mean, you've been you've been a wonderful friend and mentor in the writing world and an encourager during this process. So I couldn't have I couldn't have done it without your guidance, that's for sure. And I'm really looking forward to this next next chapter with you on this podcast and and talking about all sorts of things. And.

Lisa Cornwell (40:11.138)

highlighting you very soon because you have a lot to talk about with your experiences. I think that New York Times story needs to get out there. Folks need to understand what happened to you and what's ahead.

Karen Crouse (40:22.902)

I look forward to many more of these to come.

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